True Crime radio show

October 9, 2012 by truthformorgan

This is the transcribed conversation between Tricia of True Crime Radio and Toni Ingram.

Listen to the show here:

TRICIA: Welcome one and all to Tricia’s True Crime Radio, formerly known as Websleuths Radio. Thank you so much for joining us tonight. We have an amazing show and I use the word amazing a lot, but this time I really mean it. Let’s get the legal goo out of the way, okay? The opinions on Tricia’s True Crime Radio are those of the host, moi, and the guests only., LLC, is a completely different and separate corporate entity from Tricia’s True Crime Radio and it stands on its own; in other words, Websleuths and Tricia’s True Crime Radio are not connected other than I am involved in both of them. In other words, what is on this radio show does not mean it can go on or on the other forum that I am so proud to own, and that is

Okay – later in the show, we are going to talk about a group of people on who do the most amazing work – there is that word again, but it’s true. The people from our unclaimed forum are the most incredible bunch. Raine1212 will join us to talk about how they go about helping the unclaimed actually go home. So, we will be talking to raine later in the show.

But first up, can police departments mess up? Would a police department intentionally withhold information or give out incomplete information just to cover their sloppy work? We don’t like to think so, but the reality is it does happen. Look at the Drew Peterson case; in my opinion, he had help when he killed his wife, Kathleen Savio, from the police department he worked with and the Illinois State Police – they just blew off the investigation and proceeded to ignore the obvious while Kathleen’s family was frantic for years, trying to get them to see the obvious, but because they had the power, they just blew off the family. Now, that is just one high-profile case we know about, and I’m sure there are others.

So, our first case tonight – we are going to look at something that is very tragic and very strange. It’s the death of Morgan Ingram. Was she killed by a mysterious stalker like her family believes, or did she commit suicide like the sheriff’s department believes? Tonight, we are very privileged to have Morgan Ingram’s mother, Toni, on Tricia’s True Crime Radio. Toni, thank you so much for joining us tonight – I really appreciate it.

TONI: Thanks, Tricia.

TRICIA: Okay, before we get in to the details about Morgan’s case, what I would like you to do is tell us all about Morgan.

Who was Morgan Ingram? What would you like us to know about your daughter, and please speak up just a little bit for me, okay?

TONI: Sure, and this is going to be the hardest part for me to get through this without crying, but…

TRICIA: It’s okay.

TONI: …Morgan was what I would call, and I did call her this in the last year of her life, gifted, profound, and uniquely brilliant. She was extremely kind. She was very intuitive. She was happy, silly – we have videos of her [LAUGHS] – she was always playing around and crackin’ jokes on everybody, so she was very playful. She was a photographer, an awesome photographer. We have – thank God – we have thousands and thousands of her pictures on her computer that she took, so we do have a lot of pictures. She was an artist. She was a baker – she loved to bake goodies, and so she would bake goodies, not dinners, but goodies – you know, like pies and cookies and just fudge and things for her friends and her family. She taught herself how to play the piano. She taught herself how to crochet, knit. Her bedroom was full of yarn – it was a disaster. I like to have everything organized – she didn’t care [LAUGHS].


TONI: She taught herself how to learn – she taught herself how to learn Lithuanian, French. She loved animals. She used to have ferrets; they eventually died – they don’t live all that long, but for years she had ferrets. She had three ferrets and they were just happy little things, just jumping all over the place, climbing into drawers and cracking up and she had them in bed with her, and, when she did die, the time she died, her puppy, Wylah – she had just gotten her puppy – oh gosh, the day before we got home from vacation in August and her stalking started right after she got her puppy, Wylah, and it was like her baby, like her child. And, she had a cat named Mogwai. She had a horse named T.C. – we still have all her animals.

She was a philosophy major – she was very, very deeply into philosophy – I’ll tell ya, I don’t even understand it. She finished her AA degree at college and she wanted to go to CU Bolder for her bachelor’s and then on to law school. She never made it to do that. She actually – after the stalking started, she decided she wanted to stay home and she wanted to just take ballet and take some other classes online and then, starting in January, she was going to start taking her certification for

yoga and completing it in June so she could start the next fall semester at CU Bolder. Then she had two more years to take and then she wanted to go on to law school.

She loved ballet. Ballet and yoga – I mean, they just kept her so busy and so strong. She was very muscular and, then, I think – you know, she also loved children so much that what she did is, in her spare time, which wasn’t a lot, but she did baby-sitting to make money for one of the big baby-sitting firms in the valley here, because we have a lot of tourists with Aspen and skiers and things, so she started working for this company and she loved working with these kids and baby-sitting. And then, recently, before she died, a few of the weekends she actually went away to Breckenridge and ‘Frisco to baby-sit the military families while their parents were in a retreat, and she loved that. She loved taking the children that were problem children and taking them with her and making them happy and doing artwork with them and things like that.

She loved making crafts, especially Martha Stewart crafts, which cracked me up, and when she was age seven she tested at a college level writing, so she wrote journals …

TRICIA: Wait, wait, wait, whoa. Stop – you said age seven?

TONI: Seven. She was seven.

TRICIA: She tested a college level writing? Wow.

TONI: …level of writing. Now…

TRICIA: Wow. Okay, I wanted to make sure.

TONI: Math not so good – writing amazing.

TRICIA: I just wanted to make sure I heard you correctly.

TONI: It’s true – it’s really true. We did have her tested out. She was amazing. She wrote. She was very articulate. She wrote three novels actually, which we’ve never had published, but she does have three novels on her computer. She wrote poems, wrote in journals constantly. She loved going places with Steve and myself. She – you know, she was the youngest of three children, but the other two were older – one is 33, one is 30, and so she was kind of the baby of the family because – she was 20 when she died. She turned 20 in August after the stalking started. We took her to concerts, we took her to James Blunt in Denver – she loved it – twice. We took her to Jethro Tull at Red Rocks with her boyfriend at the time, and she loved Jethro Tull, which cracked me up because it’s way before her time.

TRICIA: That’s our era. That’s our music [LAUGHS].

TONI: I know, but she loved it. We got great seats and she thought it was the best thing – and we took her to Mumford and Sons at Belly Up in Aspen and – we took her to all kinds of musicals. She loved, loved stage plays and musicals. In fact, we set up a thing over at CMC at the college for a scholarship for the theatre department for her, actually, in her name. And, she loved going on road trips with us – Santa Fe was like her favorite, because she loved seeing the architecture and all the art. We’d bring her to Las Vegas, California, Malibu Beach – she loved the ocean, and during the week, you know, just when we were – she’d go to school and I would be working – after work, she would run errands with me. She’d just jump in the car and she’d take her knitting and we would go to the post office and to the grocery store and do things together, and – she wasn’t a normal 19- to 20-year-old [LAUGHS]. I mean, I have an older daughter and son, and we used to take care of other teenagers years ago – so trust me, I know – and she definitely was not like a normal 19- or 20-year-old. She was way beyond her years. She was very…

TRICIA: I was going to say – she sounds like an old soul, very compassionate…

TONI: She was – since the moment she was born people called her an old soul.

TRICIA: Yeah, she sounds like she was in tune to people and very loving and I can see why you are so proud of her and what a tragedy this is, and, again, I want to say how sorry I am that we have to have you on the show under these circumstances, but, hopefully…

TONI: Oh, I appreciate that.

TRICIA: Websleuths is a very kind and compassionate group of people, just like Morgan, and if anybody can help you get to the bottom of everything, it would be this group. But, let’s talk about the stalking, okay? Basically, tell us how it started, and then I want to ask you some questions about your local sheriff’s department. When did you first notice she was being, that Morgan was being stalked?

TONI: None of us really knew at first [LAUGHS], I think, and this goes back to I think in February of 2011, the end of February. She borrowed my car – her car had 300,000 miles on it, so it kind of died and so she borrowed my car and we shared it and she took my car in to a night class she had at the college, over in Carbondale. Most of her classes were day classes and they were in Glenwood, but she went to a night class, a philosophy class at night, and it started to snow and when she came out somebody had keyed her car, or my car I guess you could say, from the very front of the car to the very back of the car, down to the metal. It was so deep, and then they wrote in gigantic letters on it – ***** – and when she came home with the car and showed me, I was so upset. I was so frantic. So, we had to wait until the next morning and call the police and I brought it down to the police station, and the police officer, the woman that was there – she was great – and she took pictures of it and wrote up the report, and she said, “This looks like somebody that has really deep anger.” And, she said, “I’m sure they made a mistake and they – you know, maybe they were on drugs and they thought it was somebody else’s car and that’s why they did it.”

And I told her, I mean – I just get a really creepy feeling from this – this does not sound right. So, I told Morgan and I said, “Morgan, I think somebody that has a bad issue, a mental problem, did this”, and she got very, very upset and she said, “Just drop it, Mom.” And I said, “I really think it is somebody in Carbondale, because the people that you are hanging around, they know that you are going to a night class, so that they would know that they could go right over there and do that to the car.” And she was very upset with me and she wanted me to drop it. So, now, fade in/fade out, nothing happened again after that – that was just something that happened at the end of February that I think we’ve tied in to this now.

TRICIA: Right.

TONI: And then she left on spring break to go to California to work on a movie with her sister. Her sister is a costume designer in California, and she was just an assistant to make some money and help her sister, so she was gone and then she came back, finished off school, got her AA, and then summer started and she went back to California because her godparents in Kauai sent her roundtrip tickets to come visit them, using their miles. So, she went to Kauai for two weeks. She had been to Kauai when she was a baby, for their wedding, but she didn’t remember it because – I mean, not a baby, she was three years old, but she just didn’t remember. So, she had a great, great time with her godparents and took lots of pictures, came back, and then worked for her sister on another movie that was being shot in Los Angeles. So, she was there until, I guess sometime in July – she came home for about a week in July and then we left to go to California on vacation, and Steve had a doctor’s appointment, so I think – when did we leave – we got home August 1, so we were gone for that whole week before that.


TONI: We never really noticed anything, I guess you could say. She wasn’t around a lot, but we never really noticed much of anything going on, and then two days after we got back and she was walking her puppy back and forth from the river, down past our house, and she was just having a great time showing her puppy to all her friends from Aspen to Carbondale, and then towards the end of the week – well, actually two days into after she got home – she started telling me she was hearing tap, tapping on her windows at night when she’d come home, take off her clothes, take a shower, and it was bothering her and she didn’t know what it was. And so I’m thinking okay, well, it’s gotta be like something – a bird, or branches, or something. You know, we really didn’t think about it.

TRICIA: Mm-mm.

TONI: And then, finally, that Friday night, a couple days later, it was bad. I mean, she could tell that within 10-15 minutes of coming home, somebody was tapping and kind of banging on her windows. So – it was scaring her. So, Saturday morning, we got up very early and all three of us walked outside and checked her windows out, and there were no – I mean, there were no branches that could be by the window, nothing. I mean, she had two bedroom windows and a bathroom window…

TRICIA: Let me stop you right here. Did you hear this tapping at the same time that she did?

TONI: Not at that time, no. Not that time.


TONI: I did later on but not at that time, I did not.

TRICIA: Okay. I’m sorry. Please continue.

TONI: So then, that weekend it got worse and then, finally, that Monday – I guess it was Monday the 8th – she went – she was so nervous – she went to take a shower in my bathroom, which is on the other side of the house, my office bathroom, and I didn’t know she was doing that. When she got home, she just came in, got her clothes, and went in her jammies and went in there, and my window was open like two inches – it was frosted glass, but it was open two inches. So, she went in the bathroom, took off her clothes, and then she freaked out – she just got a really creepy feeling, so she closed the window real quick with the crank thing, and somebody just banged so loud on that window – she just screamed and just grabbed the towel and ran out with no clothes on – you know, with the towel wrapped around her, and ran into my room on the other end of the house and told me what happened.

So then, of course, I called the sheriff’s and they came out, and they actually saw footprints – this is really creepy because they showed me where there were footprints underneath the window of the bathroom – my office bathroom – but then they went and looked all the way around the house and they found footprints, like with the toes right up against the wall by her bedroom windows, and it was very creepy. And so then they called up and – the patrol officer was really nice – he called up the office and asked if he could take a casting or a picture, and they said no, this is just misdemeanor trespassing right now, you’re not allowed to do that.

TRICIA: Oh, brother.

TONI: So, my husband went out and just took pictures of them, because …

TRICIA: Well, good. Good.

TONI: …because they couldn’t do it. Yeah…so, that’s how it started.

TRICIA: Okay, so now it just kind of came out of nowhere and started. When did you start to hear the things that Morgan was hearing – when did you start to notice this stalker in your lives?

TONI: Well, this – we’re still in August at this point…

TRICIA: It’s August 2011?

TONI: …and towards the end of August – I mean, we – she started sleeping in our bedroom closet, in the master bedroom.

TRICIA: We’re talking about 2011, right?

TONI: Right, 2011.


TONI: So, she’s sleeping in my closet because she is such a nervous wreck. So, her and the puppy, her cell phone, [LAUGHS] everything is in my closet [LAUGHS] – it was a disaster.

TRICIA: Right.

TONI: But, she had to. And so, she’s sleeping in there, we’re sleeping in our bed in the room, and at this point in time now we have motion detector lights and motion detector alarms around the house. So now motion detector alarms are going off, motion detector lights are going off. It’s warm out because it’s summertime, so we have our windows open at night by our bed – not in the closet where she is but in our bedroom – and the windows are open and of course we’re talking and I have a loud voice so I think the person could hear what I was saying all the time so he knew where we were at all times. And the lights outside of our bedroom windows, the motion lights, would go off and then we would run out and try to catch the person, and we could never see anything in the dark. So, we didn’t hear noises at that time, but we could – the lights and the alarms were going off. And then Morgan finally started saying that she was starting to get things thrown up against the window, because the window in the master bedroom walk-in closet was really high, up at the ceiling, maybe 10 feet high…

TRICIA: Right.

TONI: …and so she was getting rocks thrown on that window. So, that was kind of, a little nerve-wracking. So I would tell her…

TRICIA: How, wait, I want to stop you – Toni, I want to stop you for just a moment.

TONI: Oh, sure.

TRICIA: How would the stalker know that she was in the closet?

TONI: Well, that’s what I wondered, and Steve said it was totally obvious, because we had our windows open and I kept saying, “Morgan, are you okay in the closet.”


TONI: “How’s it going, are you ready to go to sleep?” You know, I was just talking to her through the wall…


TONI: …and he thinks that that was so stupid.

TRICIA: Got it, got it. Okay, I’m sorry – please continue.

TONI: So, that happened, and then towards the end of August, when – we had this thing where Morgan always had to come home – I was trying to get her to come home always before 10 o’clock and always text me ahead of time so I could meet her in the driveway with pepper spray and, you know – I could be right there so she was safe getting in and out with her puppy. So, one night – it was pretty consistent – she would come home around 10 o’clock because she would wait till the last minute …

TRICIA: Mm-hmm.

TONI: And, then one night I was in the front room, which was my office, and my window was open because it was warm and she wasn’t home, and I had the light on in my office and the curtains were open just – you know, a little bit, not a lot…

TRICIA: Right.

TONI: And, I wasn’t thinking about it and I was on the phone with her. She called and she said, “Mom, can I sleep over at my friend’s house tonight because I really need some rest and I don’t want to sleep in the closet.” And, I said, “Sure, you don’t have to come home tonight” and I said, “I’ll see ya in the morning, just make sure you get home early for school and everything” because school had started. And, as soon as I hung up that phone, something – I don’t even know what it was – hit my window, and it was so loud it was like a gunshot. And, I was so scared [LAUGHS], I just jumped out of my skin, and then right then and there I realized this is how she feels – this is like the scariest thing in the world, and I got angry because I’m Italian, of course…


TONI: So, I just, you know, [LAUGHS] grabbed my pepper spray – I’m in pajamas with my housecoat, and I go running out in the front yard and I’m like cussing and screaming and going okay, “Come out you chicken.” [LAUGHS]

TRICIA: You can say it here – we don’t have any FCC rules, so say whatever you’d like, my dear, okay? [LAUGHS]

TONI: [LAUGHS] But, anyway, so of course he didn’t come out, so then I ran in the room and I got Steve and I kind of de-emasculated him, saying, “You get out there and you get this guy [LAUGHS] …

TRICIA: Oh, poor guy. My gosh.

TONI: I know, poor thing. I know everybody tells me I’m so mean.


TONI: And, so, you know – he was trying to calm me down. He told me to call the police. So, I called the sheriffs and they said that they were on their way and they said, “Promise me, Toni, you will not leave the house – we’re going to try to come in with a dog.” I said, “Great. I promise I won’t leave the house.” Well, five seconds after I got off the phone I told Steve, “I’m going out there – I’ve had it. I’m going to catch this guy.” [LAUGHS]

TRICIA: Oh, dear.

TONI: I was so angry. I was really angry. He said, “You promised them not to go out.” I said, “I’m going out” and he goes, “No, no. You stay here – I’ll go out.” So, he grabs the pepper spray [LAUGHS] and he walks out and he almost pepper sprays the sheriff. It was horrible.


TONI: But, they came in – this was the closest they ever came to catching this guy. They came in with four sheriffs, four different directions, and they came in fast, really, really fast. No dog, but the sheriffs came in, and they tromped right over to that house, three houses down that they were thinking at this point in time, after coming out so many times, that this was where it was coming from. And, so they surrounded the house, knocked on the door, knocked on the door, knocked on the door, and knocked on the door and for the longest time – and I stayed in the house, I wasn’t allowed out – and my next door neighbor was out and she was listening and calling me on the cell phone and, finally, the B person came to the door and she said that the K person was sleeping [LAUGHS], even though it was just after 10 – it was between 10 and 10:30 at night ….

TRICIA: Okay, hold on…

TONI: …that she wasn’t going to allow anybody … pardon?

TRICIA: B person and K person? Are you saying…

TONI: Right.

TRICIA: …that you – those obviously are initials – are you saying you know who the stalker is, or you feel you know who the stalker is?

TONI: We, we, do [LAUGHS]. We do feel…

TRICIA: That’s fine, so – I just wanted to make sure.

TONI: …but, we’re not 100% sure – we’re not 100% sure.

TRICIA: Let me just stop you real quickly. Let me stop you real quickly Toni and let everybody know, we’re talking with Toni Ingram whose daughter Morgan was found dead in her bedroom in December 2011. The Ingrams believe it was a stalker who killed her, and the sheriff’s department and the officials say no, we think it was suicide. So, you’re listening to Toni, and it’s a very emotional and very stressful story. I’m getting stressed out just listening to this.

TONI: And you haven’t even heard all the things that happened. [LAUGHS]

TRICIA: Oh, I can’t even, I can’t even — I’m just, I’m, I, I really am a nervous wreck. Okay, so…

TONI: Well, the blog – the reason I did the blog, just so everyone knows, too – I did the blog – someone had suggested I do that, just to tell people the story of things that happened, the truth that happened every single day during her stalking so that they can see it was real. They could see what happened and they could also use it as a guideline to realize that – you know, we, throughout this whole thing, there were times where, for three days maybe, it was quiet, and we were thinking in our minds, oh, it’s over – maybe we were imagining things – maybe it wasn’t as bad as we thought – maybe this was just a game. I mean, we came up with so many lies to ourselves in our brains trying to justify why we didn’t have to live like this anymore, you know, and that our daughter wasn’t in danger anymore because it was just so horrifying. It was just horrible. And, it just was…

TRICIA: So, Toni…

TONI: …it just wasn’t working. I mean, it just continued.

TRICIA: Toni, we’re talking, we’re talking – let me take you back to that night when the sheriffs came and almost caught him. B came to the door and said K was asleep – we are thinking K is the stalker and …

TONI: And we’re thinking he snuck out of the house at this point …

TRICIA: He snuck out of the house…

TONI: …and he snuck back in.

TRICIA: So, what happened from there?

TONI: They stuck around for a long time. I’m thinking it was almost an hour – it was pretty shocking. I mean, they just kept putting their flashlights to the windows, they were just surrounding the house, they were just making sure – because they thought they caught him outside too, and I’m pretty sure they did. So, she refused. She just absolutely refused to – she wouldn’t let the sheriffs in. She wouldn’t let them – she wouldn’t go get the person. She wouldn’t do anything. And so finally they had to leave. So they left and within five minutes of leaving, our back motion detector lights and alarms went off seven times in a row. I mean, this person was just like running back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, and we could never see him. I mean, that’s how fast he was. It was just crazy. And Morgan wasn’t even home, so this was all happening with Morgan not even being home.

TRICIA: Mm-hmm. So…

TONI: And then…

TRICIA: Oh, go ahead.

TONI: Okay. I was just going to say, and then, then it went on, and you know, we bought a web camera, you know for wildlife, web camera for hunters, because someone suggested it. We mounted it and the first night that we mounted it – you know, we had, Morgan had the rocks and we called the sheriffs and they came, and they searched, couldn’t find anything. They never can. I mean you cannot catch a stalker like this if you show up after it has happened. It’s just – you’re not going to catch him. That’s the wrong way to do it. And, so they – three officers came. They were so nice. They were great. They searched the area, couldn’t find him. They left. And so after they left, [LAUGHS] we went back to bed and Steve was ready to go to sleep, and I said, “Oh, wait a minute, we have to get the camera down and check out the pictures,” because we don’t know how it works, if it’s going to work or not work.

TRICIA: Mm-hmm.

TONI: So, he got the ladder. We climbed up, got the web camera down and plugged it into the computer, and we’re looking and one officer leaves, then the second – two officers leave at the same time and you could see their cars driving away, and BOOM! There’s the stalker right there, right by the front porch, on the camera, standing, leaning up against Steve’s truck.

TRICIA: Mm-hmm.

TONI: And then, the next picture after that – and they are all time stamped and dated stamped and everything – you can see, you know, a blur of spinning, and what he had done is, he had whacked the camera with something, I don’t even know what because it was up high, you couldn’t get it down, obviously. And the camera never worked well after that so we didn’t really use – we just hung it, but we didn’t really get any pictures off of it after that. So, we ended up going to …

TRICIA: Oh, I’m sorry – go ahead.

TONI: …video cameras.

TRICIA: Video cameras, okay.

TONI: So then we ended up going to the video surveillance cameras, like six of them surrounding the house that go 24/7 and they record.

TRICIA: Mm-hmm.

TONI: You know, like they have it stored. So we bought that eventually…

TRICIA: And did that come up with anything?

TONI: …and we did get pictures on that, too.

TRICIA: So, you did get pictures – you could never see his face, obviously?

TONI: Never could see his face. I mean, you can kind of and I’m sure if somebody can enhance it they could probably see things. I mean, I could see his shirt, I could see his hair, I could see him – the way he was walking, hand in pocket some pictures. I mean, just popping up from behind Morgan’s car in the driveway, from a crouching position to a standing position and running behind a bush. I mean, we did have pictures – or in the back of the house where the tree was that we believed he climbed up the tree and got on our roof. We, we…


TONI: …you could see a head and shoulders…

TRICIA: Let me just interrupt you really quickly. Are these, are these images on your blog, because if they are, Websleuths members can capture them and enhance them.

TONI: They’re not, only because I’ve been doing it on a daily thing, so these pictures aren’t – it hasn’t been posted yet, but, I mean, you know I do want this solved and if I have to start posting things faster and faster instead of doing them the way I’ve been doing them, that’s fine too.

TRICIA: Well, it’s totally up to you, but I – let me tell you, the people on Websleuths are amazing what they can do technically and if you put those up there, they will take them and they’ll enhance them as best as anyone can. We are talking with Toni Morgan. Toni is telling us the very tragic and very scary story of a stalker stalking their family, and Toni’s beloved daughter, Morgan, was found – excuse me, Toni Ingram. I’m sorry, I’m just, I’m so, like, wound up about this.

TONI: I’m sorry.

TRICIA: No, don’t apologize. It’s just so frightening.

TONI: It’s just so strange, I know. It’s scary.

TRICIA: Yes. Toni Ingram. Her daughter, Morgan, was found dead. Officials say it was a suicide. Toni’s family feels that it was the stalker. Did you ever think to stake out the alleged stalker’s house and wait for him to come out?

TONI: We did. Steve actually borrowed a – what would you call it, a thermal imaging scope, and actually went out on the berm and tried to wait for this person, but we believe he had night vision glasses too and he could see anything going on because we had seen a little tiny red light moving away at times when we ran outside to try to find this guy. So, a lot of people have said, okay, it could have been a scope on a gun, it could have been thermal – you know, night vision goggles, it could have been all kinds of – I’ve had people say everything. I think it was night vision glasses or goggles or something.

TRICIA: Mm-hmm. Yeah, it very well could have been.

TONI: Because he was able to … yeah, I mean, I had the sheriffs do a stakeout one night for about three hours and, you know, that’s kind of silly too, because you’ve got Sheriff that is reflected [LAUGHS]…


TONI: …on the back of your shirt [LAUGHS], and anybody can see that. I can see that and I’m blind [LAUGHS], so…

TRICIA: Exactly.

TONI: So, that was never going to work.

TRICIA: Let me take you back just a little bit, okay? And I want to clear up who we’re talking to because the last time I tried to say it I got it all discombobulated. We’re talking with Toni Ingram. Her daughter Morgan was found dead in December. Toni’s family believes it was the stalker. Officials are saying no, it was a suicide, and Toni is explaining what happened leading up to her daughter Morgan’s death, and it’s very intense. It’s very dramatic and very scary. So, this person lives a few houses down from you. Do you have any idea why you think this person would have done this? What is the motivation here?

TONI: Well, it’s – this is tough because I don’t know for a fact this is the person, but – I mean, we had many suspects…

TRICIA: If it is…if it is the person, why?

TONI: If it is the person, he moved in while we were gone on vacation. He rented a room from his girlfriend’s father. So he was living with his girlfriend and her father.

TRICIA: Mm-hmm.

TONI: She was under 18, and he moved in just before we, you know, got back from vacation and the stalking started. He moved out the beginning of October – he supposedly broke up with her and moved out. The stalking continued, but then I knew that he worked 5-10 minutes away at the night shift at the grocery store. So, we knew that he was able to get there anyway – it didn’t matter whether he was living in that house or not, it was just, you know – it was kind of, I think it was a scam, and I think the girl, this girl, Morgan was never friends with her. She just didn’t like her. She tried at one point. She came to our house once and Morgan dyed her hair for her, just to try to be nice, and then she told me after she left, she said, “Mom, I cannot be with this person – I just do not get along with her at all,” and she couldn’t – she was younger than Morgan, she was in and out of rehab, and she was just not the kind of person that Morgan wanted to be around…

TRICIA: …could relate to and hang out with. Yeah, there are people like that, obviously, in the world. Okay, so now we have the girlfriend is living there. Morgan knows her. The guy’s moved out. Why did he hyperfocus on Morgan?

TONI: That’s what we’re trying to figure out. Morgan ran into him just before the car got keyed in February, and that was at a friend’s mother’s house. She walked in with some friends and this girl was standing there with this guy. Morgan had never seen this guy before, ever, and she just got a really creepy feeling from him, and the girl said, “Oh, Morgan, we have to hang out sometime,” and Morgan didn’t even answer her, she just turned around and walked out as fast as she could, and she told me about it when she got home and then her car got keyed after that, and then I had friends that were in the house at the time and heard this girl say bad things about Morgan and how she was going to get her – and this girl had already beaten up another girl and gotten arrested for it – it was underage, obviously, but within the last year before that. So, she had some anger issues, and so Morgan didn’t want to even go near her, and recently this girl just got arrested again, right after she just had a baby, she got arrested for beating somebody up again.

TRICIA: Of course.

TONI: Domestic violence, so…

TRICIA: Well, and so you know, when you’re dealing with somebody like this woman, who obviously has some deep issues, if she feels rejected or humiliated that could be enough for her to get somebody – I mean, I’m just theorizing here – to get somebody to torment her, because, hey, we’re not good enough for Morgan, you know, how dare she diss us like this. I mean, you can see…

TONI: Right…

TRICIA: ….that type of mentality, if that is the case. You know – and the other thing, too, Toni, a stalker doesn’t need to have a logical reason. So, first of all, it’s not logical to do anyway, but they don’t need to have a reason…

TONI: Right.

TRICIA: …it could be he saw her one day and thought that she was communicating with him through her eyes. I mean, it could be something just crazy like that.

TONI: Right.

TRICIA: I’ve heard John Douglas, the FBI profiler, speak about this. He even warned his daughters not to smile at strangers in public, because he works a lot of cases where simply smiling at a stranger turned into a stalking case. And that’s one of the many terrifying things about stalking, is it so, can be so absolutely random. So, all of this was going on – and we’ll get back a little bit more to the other things that he did and the police and what they believe, but I want to ask you some tough questions, okay?

TONI: Sure.

TRICIA: Because – and I’m not saying this out of disrespect in any way, shape, or form, but as Morgan’s case gets more media attention, you’re going to have naysayers and people come in that are going to try to prove you wrong simply based on the fact that the authorities believe she committed suicide. Okay?

TONI: Right.

TRICIA: And they’re going to say they couldn’t catch this guy, you know, was he really there, could Morgan have keyed the car herself, on and on and on. First question – did Morgan suffer from depression; if so, how deep was the depression?

TONI: She was never diagnosed with depression – she never even had it. She was never treated for it. She was, like, the furthest from a depressed person ever, I’ve ever met in my life.

TRICIA: Mm-hmm, okay. And…

TONI: And, I also want to tell you that I know the stress of the stalking for four months took its toll on me. I’ve never been depressed either, but I went to see a therapist two weeks before she died because I was a nervous wreck and I asked Morgan to go with me because I figured she was a nervous wreck, and she said, “I don’t need a therapist, I’m fine – I have ballet, I work it out, I sweat – I, you know, I talk to people, I’m fine.” So, she wouldn’t go with me, so I asked one of the detectives – there were two felony stalking detectives on her case – so two weeks before, when I was going to the therapist, I asked the female detective if she could please have a talk with Morgan and make sure she was okay, because it had to be taking its toll – I could see it in her face. You know?

TRICIA: Right.

TONI: And, you’re not getting any sleep, you’re getting woken up at 2 in the morning with a big bang on your window. I mean, it just – she walked outside to let her puppy go potty – she got a creepy feeling and put the puppy on a long leash, opened the door, and the guy was standing right there, dressed in black. I mean, he did – he followed her in the car. I mean, there was just – I knew she was stressed to the max. So, this woman, the detective, talked to her for over an hour and then reported back to me – this was 2 weeks before she died – that she was not depressed at all, “She’s fine, she really feels upbeat – you know, she works it out – I’m a runner and I run every morning and I blow steam off, and she does the same thing with ballet twice a day,” and she said, “You have nothing to worry about.”

And, then, 36 hours before she died, we actually – I went with her to our gynecologist’s in Grand Junction because we both have the same gynecologist so we just drive together, and I went in there first and talked to our gynecologist, Dr. Sims, and I told her about the stalking and that Morgan, you know, has dark circles under her eyes now – she is exhausted – what am I going to do – could you please talk to her. So, she did Morgan’s examination and talked to her and of course it’s doctor/client privilege, I can’t …

TRICIA: Right.

TONI: …you know, I can’t, I couldn’t ask her what happened, and then a month after Morgan died I decided – I was coming out of my shock a little bit – and I called the doctor and I talked to her, and she was in shock that Morgan died and she said when she did her exam she was perfectly normal and healthy and in good shape, and she did have a long talk with Morgan and she said Morgan was fine. She said she was tired, exhausted, and a little stressed out, but other than that she was pretty upbeat, thinking they were gonna arrest this guy the following week because they had an appointment the following week to go over his hours and try to, you know, I don’t know what you call it, but try to get him – see something that they could say, this is…

TRICIA: A pattern.

TONI: …this is definitely evidence.

TRICIA: A pattern.

TONI: So, Morgan was upbeat with that doctor. And this was…

TRICIA: Mm-hmm.

TONI: …36 hours before she died…


TONI: …and the doctor asked her, do you want some sleeping pills because I can prescribe some for you since you’re not sleeping, and she said no. She didn’t like to take pills – because she didn’t. She had not taken amitriptyline for over a year and a half. We even checked – we even got the printouts from the pharmacy, from her doctors – she didn’t. She didn’t like to take pills. She went through the hyperbaric chamber seven times to get rid of the carbon monoxide that she had been exposed to…

TRICIA: Mm-hmm.

TONI: …and she was very healthy after that. She had no more pain attacks.

TRICIA: Okay, so, the question of depression is pretty much answered in your mind and in everybody’s mind that knew her, including her doctor…

TONI: Right.

TRICIA: …that she was upbeat and she was actually kind of looking forward to the coming events because she felt like she was getting closer and closer to this guy….

TONI: Right.

TRICIA: …getting him caught, him be…

TONI: I thought the same thing.

TRICIA: Yeah. Okay.

TONI: Right.

TRICIA: We’re talking with Toni Ingram. Toni’s daughter, Morgan, was stalked; unfortunately and very tragically, Morgan was found dead in December 2011. Officials ruled it a suicide. Toni and her family are absolutely convinced that the stalker did this to her, a mysterious stalker. They have an idea who they think it might be – they’re not sure, but they’re having trouble getting the attention they feel this case needs to get this man for the murder of their daughter. Would you be willing to take a lie detector test if…

TONI: Oh, absolutely.

TRICIA: …authorities – okay. And…

TONI: Oh, sure.

TRICIA: Okay, that’s not problem, so authorities, if they say, look, you know, we think you’re making it up, I would suggest you say, give me a lie detector test right now.

TONI: Oh, I would absolutely do that in any case and so would my husband.

TRICIA: Okay, now…

TONI: And, I mean…

TRICIA: Go ahead, please.

TONI: Go ahead…I was just going to…

TRICIA: No, no, no – I want…

TONI: …say that we do have – and the night she was murdered, her jewelry just disappeared and within two weeks of her being murdered, this guy was arrested on a warrant in Glenwood, so it wasn’t in the county, so it wasn’t our sheriff, and he was arrested for stolen, for taking stolen jewelry and selling it from somebody else. And, he – when they cuffed him and they searched his car, they found a lot of drugs and a scale and paraphernalia, and so he got it for felony stalking too, but I think his charges were reduced, so I’m not sure but at that point when I found out – I did not find out from the sheriffs, our sheriffs – I found out from my daughter-in-law, who saw it in the newspaper. So, I went down myself – since our sheriffs didn’t even know – to the police department in Glenwood, and I asked them for the public record of the arrest – they couldn’t find it. So then I went over to the DA’s office and they couldn’t find it. So then they asked me to fill out this paperwork which was all this private information, which I did and I gave it to them, and they said that an investigator would call me. They called me and I told them the case of my daughter and that her jewelry disappeared and I wanted to know if it was in with this person’s jewelry that, you know, he had sold…


TONI: …to the Cash for Gold place and they were very angry at me for even trying to get involved, and they told me…

TRICIA: What??

TONI: …they told me they weren’t going to say anything and I had to go through my sheriff. So, I called the sheriff and he said that he would try to find out for me, which he ended up telling me if I had pictures of the jewelry then he could do something, but any other way would be bad policing and, you know, he couldn’t do it. They just couldn’t do it.

TRICIA: Oh, you know what – I’m sorry. I’ve never heard of that. Do you have to have pictures of your jewelry – I thought you could identify it and have other people…

TONI: I did and I did tell them exactly what they looked like.

TRICIA: Uh-huh, and so you don’t know – to this day, you don’t know…

TONI: We still don’t know.

TRICIA: …if – and that’s, that’s obscene. I’m sorry, that’s just, that’s ridiculous. Such an easy thing to do…

TONI: Oh, that’s just one of the obscene things…[LAUGHS]

TRICIA: Oh, I can’t – I’m sitting here getting mad. I’m spitting all over my, you know, computer here. I can’t even imagine what you were doing. Okay…

TONI: And, if – you know…

TRICIA: Okay, onward with…

TONI: …and it’s really, it’s almost like this stalker – I believe this stalker – honestly, I believe the person that did this to Morgan is actually a serial stalker and a serial murderer, and I think that they haven’t warned anybody. I think, the summer before I had two patrol officers who I thought were great – they were like warriors – they actually, two separate ones, two separate times in the beginning of this whole thing – told me about a story that the subdivision across the road from us, the summer before, had five separate incident calls, I guess they call them…

TRICIA: Oh, my gosh.

TONI: …where they called, people called in, women called in and said somebody was tapping on their windows and, you know, spying on them. So, and the last one, they said the woman heard a trash can fall over, so she went out there and saw a guy in a hoodie, dressed in black, and so she called 9-1-1 and she was hysterical, and they had a dog in the area, so the dog hit the trail and followed the guy for two miles and then lost him – there’s a lot of irrigation ditches and there’s a river right there where they lost him, so he probably went through the water, but they lost him, and then they never had any more calls, they said, after that.

Well, just a week ago, through our tip line on our Web site, a woman came in and sent me an e-mail and said that, I live in that subdivision and on that street and two weeks before Morgan’s stalking last summer, she said, my husband left town for 12 months – I mean he had been gone, he had not been gone for 12 months – this was the first night he was gone in 12 months – so she had no idea how the guy knew he was gone, but she was upstairs, second story, with her two little babies and she got a creepy feeling and looked out her window, and right in the middle of her back yard, which was fenced, was a guy dressed in black looking up at her window. So, she got the mama bear syndrome going, you know, and she ran downstairs and she grabbed her old, old German Shepherd and pulled him down the stairs, grabbed a butcher knife, and she said she ran to her back door, opened it, and told the dog to attack. The dog had never been told to attack in it’s whole life, but the dog saw the guy, raised its hackles, and just took off barking…

TRICIA: Good for him.

TONI: …after the guy, almost got him, and the guy went over the fence.

TRICIA: Our people, our listeners in our chat room, Toni, are asking a question. They would like to know the year and the kind of car, so they can kind of maybe figure out the height of this guy, okay? So, if you could get that information to us they might be able to…

TONI: He bought the car right after the stalking started.

TRICIA: Mm-hmm. If you…

TONI: And I know exactly the make and the picture and everything of the car.

TRICIA: Okay – if you could just…

TONI: The patrol officer, I mean not the patrol officer – when it became a felony stalking case, they actually made up posters, they said, and gave them to all the law enforcement people so they could see the car, his name, where we lived, Morgan’s name, her car, you know – everything, so that they would know to be aware.

TRICIA: Got it – okay. So, if you could get that to us, we’d be – you know, we don’t even need to do it on the forum if you would rather not. We could just give it to some members and they could kind of work it out, and that way that could give you an idea if the height is the same as the person who you think it is, that’s just another clue pointing to this stalker. So, if you could get that to me, I would really appreciate it.

TONI: Oh, sure. Yeah, I can definitely get that to you, but not over the phone.

TRICIA: No, no, no. Oh, no, no, no, no. We will do this off the air later via e-mail, however you want to handle it. So, we’re talking with…

TONI: Great, I could do that.

TRICIA: …Toni Ingram. Toni’s daughter, Morgan, was stalked by a very scary, mysterious stalker who has yet to be caught. Morgan was found dead in her bedroom in December 2011. Officials say it was a suicide. Toni and the rest of her family feel strongly, without question, that it was the stalker who did this to their lovely daughter, Morgan. Okay, onward with the tough questions, because these are the questions, Toni, that people are going to ask you, okay?

TONI: Which is great. This is great. Can I say one thing though about this – you keep saying the suicide. I just want everybody to be really clear that the pathologist, the forensic pathologist, Dr. Kurtzman, who did the original autopsy the morning she died and did the PER on her, he wrote down natural causes, and we…

TRICIA: Oh, okay.

TONI: …after a month of coming out of my bubble of grief and then seeing the autopsy report for the first time and going through it with him on a conference call with my husband and the lead detective, I asked him the hard question, how could you put down natural causes when she has such a high level of amitriptyline, and he said, well she was taking it because your husband showed me a bottle with a prescription, and I said that was from over a year and a half ago – she was not taking it. And, he said, well, parents are the last to know. So, we argued with him for months and months. We threw every specialist at him, all her doctors didn’t agree with him, I mean, everything, and he would not change it, and that’s when I got Dr. Dobersen involved in this.

TRICIA: Oh, so Dr. Dobersen is involved. He is a very good doctor. He worked on the JonBenet Ramsey case.

TONI: He’s great.

TRICIA: He is a magnificent man.

TONI: Right, and he just finished up the Batman shootings in the movie theatre.

TRICIA: Right. So, what are you saying, because I was just reading – I can’t remember the name of the sheriff’s department official where they said it was a suicide. Did…

TONI: Right.

TRICIA: …did they change it to indetermined or undetermined, or what did they change it to?

TONI: Nope. Nope. They changed it to just – they changed it from natural to suicide, and we knew they were going to do it just because they knew about Dr. Dobersen and they refused to change it from natural causes, so – I had been threatened three times over the phone by the pathologist, Dr. Kurtzman, that every time I brought up the subject of it has to be the amitriptyline – nothing else showed up, no alcohol, no drugs, no nothing, and she wasn’t taking it – every time I said that, he said, “Toni. I could put down suicide or accidental overdose, except there’s nothing in her stomach.” So, every time, he cut me off with that statement, every single time. So, I knew it was coming eventually, and so, when I told them…

TRICIA: It was kind of a threat.

TONI: …I got Dr. Dobersen…pardon?

TRICIA: Right. It was a threat. It was like, look, look lady, I could do this, if you don’t watch it, right?

TONI: Exactly.


TONI: But, I don’t back off that easily, because I knew. You know, her doctors knew, everyone was very upset and very angry. And, so, I got Dr. Dobersen involved, and he said, in the beginning, “Oh, Trey Hold, I know him, the coroner, just have him call me, I’ll explain to him that the pathologist is wrong and why he’s wrong,” because I sent him all the lab tests and the whole thing. So, our coroner would never call him. He would never call me. He never once, ever, contacted us. We sent certified letters, everything – nothing. And then, on August 31, [LAUGHS] – Morgan died December 2, 2011 – August 31, 2012, was the first time we got a fax with the new PER changing it to suicide and then with the new laboratory results.

TRICIA: Okay, and we’re going to get into all of that – the laboratory and what was found in her system and how you think she was killed and how he was able to do this, the stalker, in just a little bit. But, I want to ask a couple more of these tough questions.

TONI: Sure.

TRICIA: I know what some of our members are thinking, and only because you have to understand we deal with all kinds of strange situations all the time, Toni, and so we’ve kind of seen where – certainly not anything like law enforcement, we haven’t, you know, seen what they have seen, but we’re – I don’t want to say we’re jaded, but we approach things cautiously and I have a feeling that somebody might ask you if you’re doing this for attention – Münchhausen by Proxy. Is there…

TONI: Right.

TRICIA: …what would you say to somebody that would accuse you of that?

TONI: I would say that the sheriff’s department and the forensic pathologist and coroner made big mistakes and they covered them up. Incompetence is one thing, but not admitting mistakes and continuing to cover them up is beyond wrong. As Dr. Dobersen says, this could have easily been corrected in the beginning and perhaps their arrogance would not allow this to happen. They forgot the very first rule of digging holes – when you find yourself in a hole, you stop digging. These guys did not stop, and you know what? It’s my daughter, and she would have done the same thing for me. I would not ever – I don’t care whose daughter it was – I would fight for this. This is wrong, I think it’s happened before, and I think it has to be stopped.

TRICIA: Okay, very – thank you very much. I spoke with Dr. Cyril Wecht – he’s a very famous forensic pathologist. He actually helped me years ago with a member of one of my forums who came to me because her daughter was murdered, she felt, absolutely certain, and Dr. Wecht looked at it and came back and said no, it was a suicide, and he told…

TONI: Mm-hmm.

TRICIA: …me, he said, that’s one of the hardest parts of his job, and I’m paraphrasing here, that parents just do not want to believe that their child could ever, ever do this, no matter what. And he has seen suicides by ballpoint pen, he’s seen…

TONI: Oh, my God.

TRICIA: …suicides that have – yeah – that have been, you know, just covered up to where it was almost impossible to tell. Isn’t it possible – isn’t it possible that she was more depressed than you thought, that maybe the stalking just got to her and she couldn’t take it anymore.

TONI: You would think that, but you know what? One of our really close friends whose daughter was her best friend from when she was 12 years on old – he’s former OSI, so when they went out, when the government sent them on an airplane to go to a different country to solve something, they had to solve it. That’s just the way it goes. It wasn’t like you could just say, oh well, I don’t know who this was and drop the whole case. They didn’t do that. They had to solve every case, and he said – he came over and spent 24 hours at hour house and talked to the lead detective after Morgan died, and he said, “Toni, this is going to be really hard. I know Morgan is not a suicide but…” – and this was before they changed it to a suicide – he goes, “…but when you’re looking at something like this, you have to look at all the aspects.” He goes, “Here’s the paperwork – we’re going to go through all these questions.” He asked us all the questions that you’re supposed to ask on a suicide, which we were never asked by our investigators, ever, and he went through the whole thing with us, and he looked at us and he said, “She didn’t commit suicide, period.” And, we were told that by our people, but I don’t trust our people, but him I do trust [LAUGHS].

TRICIA: Right.

TONI: And Dr. Dobersen I do trust, and he said the same thing. I mean, there’s just no evidence that she committed suicide. She was not a suicide candidate.

TRICIA: Toni, Dr. Dobersen, having Dr. Dobersen on your side is really going to help you a lot, and I’m very glad to…

TONI: I think so.

TRICIA: …hear that he is…

TONI: He is such a nice person.

TRICIA: He is, he is a wonderful man.

TONI: He’s so nice.

TRICIA: We’re talking with Toni Ingram whose daughter Morgan was stalked; unfortunately and very tragically Morgan was found dead in her bedroom. At first, they ruled it natural causes, then they changed it to a suicide, but the Ingrams are absolutely convinced that the stalker, the person who was terrorizing Morgan and Toni and the entire family for quite a while, is the one responsible for Morgan’s death. Let’s move on. There is one other question I want to ask you.

TONI: Sure.

TRICIA: Why were not as concerned about Morgan away from home? Did you not think that this guy would follow her and try and harm her?

TONI: Oh, I did.

TRICIA: Did you? Okay.

TONI: Oh, yeah, absolutely. She always had pepper spray on her [LAUGHS]. I told her over and over again, don’t ever be without people. If you drive up, you text your friends, they come out, they meet you at the car, they walk you in – you know, she was told to always, always watch out and I was a nervous wreck, and my husband actually, quite a few times, drove, at night, in to Carbondale and parked kind of where she was or she’d be coming by, and he’d just wait. And then she would come by, because she’d text me and tell me every single time she was coming home – she would be on her way and I’d text him, and he would just hold back and wait to see if somebody was following her, because she got followed twice and she was so scared. I mean, she – she was smart enough to maneuver down this street, that street, all these side streets, keep winding around, and the car kept following her, and finally, she pulled in to the college parking lot where there were kids getting out of their cars and she pulled right into the middle, and then they drove by and then she took off out the other entrance and then went to the highway and took the highway and then came back all the way around again, so completely lost them. But, it was nerve-wracking. My husband sat in a bush one night, off of Country Road 100, and waited for her to come home, to see if there was somebody on foot that, you know, would know that, was tipped off that she was coming home and they were on foot getting there, and he never saw anybody. We tried so many things.

TRICIA: Oh, boy – you know, it’s – Marc Klaas has said this to me, and I don’t know if you are familiar with Marc Klaas – his daughter, Polly, was kidnapped and murdered…

TONI: Right, I am.

TRICIA: Yeah. He’s a very good friend of, and he told me – he said, “You know, if someone wants to get ya, they’ll get ya.” I mean, and that’s kind of a fatalistic view, but here’s proof, you know. I mean, this guy really knew how to dodge and how to make sure that he wasn’t seen, so let’s…

TONI: Right.

TRICIA: We’re going to get in to the actual death of Morgan and how you think she was killed, but, first, I want to ask you about this – and I’m a little confused on this. You think the stalker could hear you talk…

TONI: Mm-hmm.

 TRICIA: …because they were, because they hacked into your phone calls – what am I missing here? What’s the story behind that?TONI: Well at first, in the beginning, my husband thought he could hear us because it was hot out and we didn’t have the air-conditioning on and I had windows cracked. So and – I’m, I speak loudly and I, you know, yell across the house. So, he thinks that he was listening to that. Now, so many people have said that Morgan’s phone could have had something done to it. It was not Jailbreaked…

TRICIA: Right, yes.

TONI: I’m not sure how you pronounce that, but it was not. It was my husband’s I-Phone. Her phone had been – died, and my husband just gave her his old I-Phone when he got a new one. So, that’s what it was that she had most of the time. Now, she did leave it at a friend’s house – you know, she went to see some friends and they were all hanging out at this house and she did leave it by accident overnight, one night. So, somebody could have gotten to it – I’m not saying that they couldn’t have, but it only happened once, and we checked the phone and we didn’t see – I mean, you know, I checked the phone records and we checked for apps on the phone – we didn’t see anything, but we’re not professionals, we don’t know what we’re looking for.

TRICIA: Well, and neither am I – let me just state that now -but let me tell you, it would be – you’d have to be really, really smart to figure out how to – and I don’t even know if the technology exists – to be able to hack into a phone and listen to phone conversations. Now, I know you can do that with Voicemail, but, I don’t even know if that technology exists – I could be wrong. Now, was her phone ever forensically looked at by anybody, and do you still have it? Do you still have the phone?

TONI: I still have it.

TRICIA: Okay. That’s one thing that maybe you want to look into because I think it’s – not that, I’m not trying to tell you what to do, but it might just be a good idea…

TONI: No, no, that’s on my list of things to do…


TONI: I just haven’t found somebody to do it yet. That’s all.

TRICIA: It’s tough – yeah, absolutely. One of the questions from our members – what was Morgan doing the day she died and who was she with? Who had access to her? Who came to visit that day? Let’s go to that day. What started the day before she died? What was she doing?

TONI: Okay, I found her body at 5:30 in the morning on Friday, so on Thursday morning she woke up in the morning and did not go to school that morning. I don’t think there was class that morning, that’s what the problem was with the dance classes. So, she woke up and she decided to help her, go to work with her dad, to help her dad pack up some boxes because he was moving his shop. So, she was actually in a really good mood. She went to the shop. She helped him pack up some boxes. One of her friends that just came back from Australia, an old boyfriend had just come back from Australia a week before that, and he was actually at the shop helping too, and then all three of them came back to the house. My husband and her friend had lunch in the kitchen, and Morgan decided she wasn’t hungry because she had had a big breakfast, so she went in my office, used my shower while I was working on my computer, came out, helped me pick out a tag that she wanted to order online for her puppy – it had dragonflies on it, because she loves dragonflies – and she went and – she had a towel wrapped around her – and she went in her bedroom and started getting ready to go out.

And, so, in the meantime, my husband and her old friend left to go in to Aspen to do a job, and I went in Morgan’s room to talk to her, to see if she wanted me to make some lunch because I hadn’t had lunch yet either, and she said she wasn’t hungry, and she, at that time, was sitting on the floor, in front of her mirror, with her stereo blasting and her puppy right there, and she [LAUGHS] – she was just blow-drying her hair and putting on music and she was just – and, you know, putting on makeup and getting all gussied up, I guess you could say, and I asked her what she was doing [LAUGHS] because it was a little unusual, and she was really happy and she said that she was going to pick up her friend, Danny, and hang out with him for little while and then she’d be back, probably within two hours when I was off from work, and then we would go do errands together, and she was taking my car. So, I said okay. So, she got all dressed up and she left, and she left the puppy with me actually because she was going to see this guy, Danny. And, so, she left, and then after two hours or so, when I got off from work, I started texting her and she never answered me. So, for four hours, she didn’t answer me. So, I was pretty frantic because that was very unusual.

TRICIA: Unlike her, yeah.

TONI: No, it wasn’t like her. So, I didn’t know where she went or what she was doing because she had said she was coming home with my car, and I had her puppy. So, finally, Steve got home at 6 o’clock, and it was dark now and I was really upset. And, so, I said, “Get in the car right now, we’re going in to Carbondale – we have to find Morgan, I don’t know where she is.” So, we got into the car. We went to Carbondale and he texted her [LAUGHS] and said, “Oh, we’re going to your favorite restaurant for dinner – you want to meet us?” – He was trying to bribe her and [LAUGHS]. So, she answered him and she said, “No, I’m not really hungry – I’m just at Danny’s grandmother’s house and just text me and let me know when you come home” because she wasn’t allowed to be home unless we were there. And, so we told – Steve said, “Okay, I’ll just text you.” And, so, we went to a different restaurant, not her favorite because she wasn’t with us, and then we went to the grocery store and we stocked up on all her favorite foods – you know, pomegranates, everything, and yogurts and stuff – and then we went home and on our way home I texted her and said that, you know, “We’re home,” and she said, “Okay, I’ll be right there.”

And then, at about, I don’t know, 8:45 maybe or so, I texted her again and I said, “Where are you? I thought you were on your way home – we told you we were coming home.” And, she said, “I’m on my way right now – I’ll be home soon.” So, I sat there and waited for her and she got home a few minutes after 9, and when she walked in, I was angry and I said, “Why didn’t you [LAUGHS] text me – I’ve been worried sick.” And she just yelled at me and went in her room [LAUGHS] because [LAUGHS] that was typical and the next morning she would always apologize – she didn’t get a chance this time, but I didn’t take it to heart. So, then I went in the room and I told her father what happened, and I said, “Why don’t you go in there and talk to her.”

So, then, he went in the room a few minutes later, and her room was dark and she was laying on her stomach with her feet up in the air – you know, leaning on her arms, and texting somebody, and she was all happy – her legs were going back and forth and he thought she was in her jammies and it was dark in the room, and he said, “Oh – I’ll come back later, you’re on the phone.” And she said, “No, I just sent the text, come on in, Dad, and we’ll talk.” And, so, he came in and they talked for about 15-20 minutes about just – you know, happy stuff, normal stuff, you know – talking about maybe taking another painting class together. Then she started telling him she didn’t feel so great and she had to go baby-sitting the next day, which was Friday, for the whole weekend until Sunday night with the military kids again, which she loved doing but she said she was worried that maybe she’d get them sick because she was starting to cough. So, Steve said, “Well, wait till morning and if you still feel like you might be able to be contagious, then your mom or you can call up Amy and just tell her that you can’t make it.” She goes, “I don’t want to do that – I feel really bad at the last minute, to bail on her.” And he said, “Well, we’ll just wait till morning and see.” And, then, he got kind of choked up because he, it was a strain for him too…


TONI: …you know, and his voice broke and he said that he told Morgan – he came back to bed and told me this – and he said that his voice broke and he said, “Morgan, I really wish I could run faster, to catch this guy.” And, Morgan said, “It’s okay, Daddy, I love you.” And that was the very last thing she said to him.

TRICIA: Ugh….oh, my God – oh, my heart.

TONI: I know – it was really hard.

TRICIA: Oh, Toni, I am so sorry.

TONI: But at least she got to say that to him – that was good.

TRICIA: And you know she would have said it to you, too, in the morning – you know…

TONI: Oh, sure, she absolutely would of – yeah, she always did. I used to always tease her and whenever she said that the next day – you know, she’d go, “I’m so sorry” this happened or that happened “and that’s no excuse and I shouldn’t have snapped at you.” And, I’d always look at her and go, “Your brother and sister never apologized [LAUGHS].

TRICIA: [LAUGHS] That just goes to show her character and how strong it truly was. We’re talking with Toni Ingram. Her daughter, Morgan, was stalked, and very tragically Morgan was found dead in December of 2011, first ruled natural causes, then changed to suicide and everything points to anything but a suicide. Toni – hold on. We have a couple of questions here -really quickly I want to get to them – if you can hang on just a second.

TONI: Sure.

TRICIA: That way – do you want to take a break? Do you need to go get some water or…?

TONI: Oh, no, I’m fine. I have some here.

TRICIA: Are you sure?

TONI: Yeah.

TRICIA: Okay. Okay, good. We’ll get to what was in her stomach and how you think she died in just a moment, but this is a very interesting question from SteelyDan. We’ve talked about the stalker – in case you’re just joining us, the stalker is a boyfriend – we don’t – excuse me – we do not know this. We are thinking this is a possibility – it’s a hypothetical…

TONI: Right.

TRICIA: …that the stalker is a boyfriend of a girl that Morgan didn’t really want to hang out with and perhaps the girl felt disrespected in some way…

TONI: Exactly.

TRICIA: …and this girl is not someone you would want to hang around with – been arrested…

TONI: Right.

TRICIA: …you know, all drugs, beating people up, just not a good person at all, certainly somebody that you wouldn’t want your daughter to hang around with. But, we are thinking that perhaps it’s the boyfriend that was the stalker. Could the stalker have been the woman rather than the boyfriend, or have you seen enough of the face and the body to tell that it is the boyfriend?

TONI: On all the views that we caught of the real stalker – you know, in the middle of the night, going here, going there on the camera and the way he would run and the body type and everything, it was definitely a guy. But, I do believe that she was involved.

TRICIA: Oh, yes, absolutely. We have a lot of professional people on Websleuths who take interest in these cases and especially in your case. Anyway, they say the half-life of the two medications that showed up in Morgan’s system would indicate that she took or was given the drugs during the late afternoon, early evening. So, what – why would…

TONI: I have an answer for that one [LAUGHS].

TRICIA: Okay, let’s hear it. What’s the answer?

TONI: Well, first of all, I have to say that no one’s seen the actual second lab test. The first lab test – he just took the blood, and the lab had the blood and they tested it just for the normal regular everyday stuff, and that’s when they came back with the amitriptyline. He said it insignificant – it was anything but insignificant and so that’s why we were arguing about it that whole time, for months. And that’s why a murder investigation was never launched. So, that was huge. That was a big, big mistake.

TRICIA: Toni, Toni – let me stop you.

TONI: Uh-huh.

TRICIA: Explain to us what that drug is. What’s it called again?

TONI: It’s call amitriptyline. It’s a prescription drug. Morgan was exposed to carbon monoxide when she was younger – she was 12 years old. So, by age 13, Children’s Hospital put her on a 10 mg dose because she was having such horrible headaches and pain in her upper quadrant of her stomach. So, they put her on amitriptyline 10 mg, which I think is the lowest you can get, and it helped a little bit but not a lot. So, eventually, we took her to Dr. Zeltzer – who’s fabulous – at UCLA Medical Center, and she was tested for all kinds of things and she went to a lot of doctors there at the pediatric department and Dr. Zeltzer ended up being her main doctor, and she put her on – she pushed it up to 25 mg, which is still a really low dose, but it seemed to really take the edge off of the headaches and the pain in her stomach and it really helped a lot.

But, then, when Morgan got older – now, she’s 18, we’ll say she’s 18 or almost 18 – she didn’t, she no longer wanted to be on pills. She was very into natural things. She would do juicing in the morning. She walked around with a water bottle all the time. She would eat raw vegetables – she didn’t even like them steamed. I mean, she was very into all this organic and very healthy foods. I’m not saying it’s bad, it was great, but she was just different. You know, she didn’t want to take non-natural things. So, she stopped taking all of her pills.


TONI: Except I think she still kept taking birth control pills at that time and that was all she took. And, so, she went through – she went to another doctor in Basalt and went through the hyperbaric chamber treatments, and when she was done with that, that was it. She was great. She was able to take ballet, rock climb, bicycle, just do everything physical again. Now she…

TRICIA: Isn’t that what they give…

TONI: …was just such a happy person.

TRICIA: Isn’t that what they give scuba divers that have the bends? Don’t they…

TONI: I think so. I think so, yeah. This is what they give them for carbon monoxide, for the…

TRICIA: How did she get exposed, it must have been a horrible exposure to have it affect her all these years through her life. What happened?

TONI: Yeah, isn’t that strange? I don’t know that much about it. Honestly, we’ve been to so many specialists and talked to so many people, and what happened was the place that we were leasing at the time – we didn’t know this, but I guess that one, the three townhomes that were in this one building had caught on fire before we ever moved into them, and so when they redid them, they rebuilt them, they put the flues in incorrectly on the roof, on our unit. And…

TRICIA: Oh, no.

TONI: …so, what happened, after 12 months of her having flu-like symptoms and all these things – she was getting chronic low levels and some high levels of carbon monoxide constantly, and she would get sick and then she’d have to stay home, and when she’d stay home she’d get more carbon monoxide [LAUGHS], and we didn’t realize what was going on because we did not have our alarms plugged in at the time. It was a rental, so we never unpacked them. And, so, finally, after going to all these specialists and she was just really bad after 12 months, Steve, you know, went out and he looked on, I guess Web MD, maybe it was…

TRICIA: Mm-hmm.

TONI: And he had, we had eliminated so many things after being tested for so many things and they were all negative, and it came down to two things and one of them was carbon monoxide. So, he ran to the lumber store and he bought some carbon monoxide [LAUGHS] detectors and plugged them, and sure enough, they started going off.

TRICIA: Oh, my gosh.

TONI: So, we got her outta there, obviously. And, then, we had the head of the building department and the head of the fire department come out the next day and look, and they stood back and they figured out exactly what it was – it was the flues. And, we were up against the hillside, so it was strange, you know, it was winter and then the breeze would come down and it would push the stuff back down into the house, I guess. So…

TRICIA: Oh, that is just terrible. That – ugh, I can’t even imagine. Well, thank God that your husband got on Web MD and did his own investigation, because boy.

TONI: Exactly.

TRICIA: That’s very scary stuff. Okay, let’s get back…

TONI: It was bad.

TRICIA: Let’s get back to when – let’s get back to the horrible tragic death of your daughter, Morgan. How do you think she was killed? How could this stalker have gotten in there, had no sign – I mean, there was no, you know, signs of strangulation, there was no physical fight. What in the world could have happened?

TONI: Well, there’re some problems. First of all, you know, our front door lock and our sliding glass door lock in the back were broken separately – you know, different times, in the beginning of this whole thing and we never in our brains put that two and two together. I mean, your brains don’t go there. We weren’t used to this, and so when he, when Steve replaced the front door lock, he decided, now that we had a stalker, that he was going to put on this heavy-duty code lock, which is like a dead bolt and it has four numbers on it that you push.

TRICIA: Right. You have to – yeah, right.

TONI: Right – a code. And, so, we had two different codes, one for Morgan and one for us, and then we took her code off – we switched the codes halfway through because the stalker would come in the middle of the night and we would hear him trying to push the little buttons on the lock. And, then, one morning, something woke me up, I have no idea what it was, and I just kind of got up and I woke Steve up and we kept the lights off, and he went in the kitchen to make some coffee, and it was 4:30 in the morning, which is very early for us [LAUGHS], and I went as quiet as a mouse and I sat at the end of the couch and I just stared at the front door, thinking I wonder if he’s gonna come try to push the lock and, sure enough, he showed up on the front porch with the light on, on the front porch, and I saw him, in a hoodie. And, he saw me at the same time I saw him, and he took off running. He knocked the motion alarm out of the Aspen tree.

My husband took off out the front door after him [LAUGHS] and of course didn’t catch him because it was dark and he took off and he was faster. And, so, I actually saw him that one time – that time. I saw him one other time, too, but that was right up on our porch. So, he either got in through – after four months of practicing with this – our friend from OSI said within 24 hours, without the shrod, the shod – what do you call it, the thing that covers the buttons – without that, anybody can figure it out within 24 hours, what the code is, and it lights up at night when you’re pushing in the code, too, which is bad. Or, another thing we just recently found out – we didn’t even know this until now, didn’t think of it, Steve is going to be putting it on the Web site – the two sliding back doors that we had actually have key locks on them. We were in that house for six and a half years, renting that house, and I never knew there were key locks on those doors, because I have the same sliding glass doors now and I’ve never seen key locks on them.

TRICIA: Right.

TONI: And, then, Steve said that the father of B, three houses down, who was living at, let K live in the house with them, was the president of the association and he had told Steve, months before the stalking started, that he had keys to all the empty homes in the neighborhood in order to get in if there was ever a problem. And, then, a few weeks ago, here I put two and two together and I said, oh my gosh, he could have had keys to those back doors, which we never even had – they were the original locks – and these guys could have gotten the keys from him, too.TRICIA: Mm-hmm.

TONI: So, they could have gotten in the back doors without any sign of break-in. They could have gotten in through the code. They could have gotten in the two hours that we were all three gone and the dogs were locked up, you know, and hidden somewhere in her room or the house. There are so many possibilities.

TRICIA: That would be, I would think, the most logical thing, because the dogs, you know, they’re so – even if you have a little yappy dog, they can hear those noises that we can’t hear. Okay, so, he gets in, and I know this is painful and I apologize, but please understand it’s – we want to help, and we need to know as much information as possible. But, if you feel that it’s too much, Toni, we can stop, okay?

TONI: Oh, sure.

TRICIA: How do you think he killed her? I mean, this is kind of amazing when you think about it – he, it seems like he did it without leaving any trace.

TONI: Yeah, it does, but then it’s easy when there’s no investigation [LAUGHS]. But, anyway, now, on the second lab test that Dr. Dobersen ran, number – not Dobersen, I’m sorry, Kurtzman ran – it’s bizarre to me, when I read this because number one, it says that they were sent these samples – the sample of the gastric fluid – they were sent this. They did not already have it. So, obviously, the pathologist still had this frozen somewhere. So, he sent it to the AITLabs – they ran it. Well, when they ran it they found, in her gastric fluid, they found the amitriptyline, but they also found this other drug, the Flexeril, which she’s never used – she never had to use that. We didn’t have it in our house anywhere. She’s never used it. I didn’t even know what it was. But, not only that, there also showed up unsuitable because they didn’t have enough sample, but it showed up like it was hitting it on the lab thing, that this was in there, but they couldn’t get an amount.

There was also two other things – a sleeping pill, flurazepam – I don’t even know what that is – and, also, this other thing which is called – it’s a metabolite of that one drug – umm, what’s it called – it’s, I can’t even say it – it’s desalkyl-flurazepam – something like that [LAUGHS] – I don’t know. But, anyway, so we believe, and Dr. Dobersen believes that she was given a date rape cocktail. And I don’t know whether they injected her with it – they never did a rape kit – so I don’t know whether they put it in her some other way, or if they put chloroform or ketamine or something on a rag and put it over her face while she was sleeping, and the puppy who was a sound sleeper too and she was really little then, so that she couldn’t fight back and then held her up and poured it down her throat. I have no idea. I really honestly don’t. But, it was liquid, whatever it was.

TRICIA: Whatever you feel that…

TONI: And I’ve had two veterinarians, just so you know, that work and have clinics in this valley, that after they read my blog they said, oh, my gosh, we have amitriptyline – we have transdermal amitriptyline that we sell over-the-counter to people for their horse, for a 1200-pound horse. Morgan was 115 pounds. If they had given her – and the horse ranch was right behind us and this girl’s mother also worked at the ranch – if they had given her a transdermal of the amitriptyline along with this other stuff – I mean that would have killed her so fast.

TRICIA: Just quite quickly, without – boy, that’s just awful.

TONI: And she was completely articulate and fine when Steve talked to her, so she didn’t have it before she went to bed that night, before she got home.

TRICIA: Okay, but…

TONI: Somebody – I do not believe they slipped it to her before that.

TRICIA: Well, but, the amitriptyline – wouldn’t that have had to been in her system earlier based on the ME reports? I mean, you know, according to some of the experts we have, it seems like it should have been there earlier. Can you [INAUDIBLE] ?

TONI: No, but that’s … unfortunately, that’s not what Dr. Dobersen says. He says because…


TONI: …if you look at the amitriptyline versus the nortriptyline and the two different numbers, nortriptyline is made by the amitriptyline – when you die, it turns into nortriptyline.


TONI: And, if you’ve been taking it all along, or if you’ve had it in advance, the nortriptyline and the amitriptyline numbers are closer together. These numbers are completely apart. They’re not even close.

TRICIA: Oh, okay. I see.

TONI: And so, he believes that she was given it and she died within a half an hour.

TRICIA: Did they – first of all, did the original ME ever explain how he missed the Flexeril in Morgan’s stomach? Have you ever heard from him about this?

TONI: Nope. Not at all.

TRICIA: And, of course, I knew the answer to that.

TONI: He didn’t run a test for it. It wasn’t even on that test at all, on the first lab test.

TRICIA: And, they didn’t test under Morgan’s fingernails, they did no sort of testing to see if she fought back, right?

TONI: Nope. And when we had the viewing – we had a viewing, which was against everything I believe, but my son talked us into having a viewing. So, we bought a casket and had a viewing and I wouldn’t go near the casket, and my sister from California, who’s a manicurist, came up to me and she said, “Did Morgan always keep her nails like that?” and I said, “What are you talking about?” because she had just had a French manicure the day before, and I thought that’s pretty normal, what’s wrong with a French manicure. Well, number one, they should have taken off her nail polish to look for injection marks under her nails, which obviously they did not do, but then when I walked over to the casket, guess what? On her right hand, her pinkie, the next finger, and the next finger – so three fingers in a row – were like cut at an angle, her nails. And, so, I asked – I called up Dr. Kurtzman, and I said, “Did you cut her nails in order to get samples or something?” – that was the obvious conclusion to me because I’m still trusting at that point, and he said he never cut her nails, they were in perfect condition and it must have been the funeral home, on the way to the funeral home they must have damaged her body. Well, you know, a body isn’t something that you damage. I mean, you just, you have to have a little respect.

TRICIA: Well, I don’t know how they could damage the fingernails. That’s just, that’s odd. That makes absolutely no sense, Toni.

TONI: And, she was right-handed and that would be like a defensive thing.

TRICIA: Right, a defensive thing.

TONI: And they didn’t even – and he said they weren’t like that. He said that they were perfect. And, so, then I said, “Well, do you have pictures of them?” and no one will show me pictures.

TRICIA: Toni, is there a possibility of an exhumation here, is that what we’re heading toward?

TONI: Nope. No.

TRICIA: You don’t think so?

TONI: She was cremated.


TONI: That was really – that was another huge mistake on my part. Huge. She wanted to be cremated, just like I want to be cremated, but it was a huge mistake. My sister reminds me of that every week.

TRICIA: Well, you know, I – nobody knows what they’ll do when they get in a position like that. Please don’t beat yourself up because it sounds like there is still plenty of evidence here to do the right thing and to make sure that Morgan gets justice. So, for the sake of all the people that are listening and that are falling in love with you and want to help you, please don’t beat yourself up, okay?

TONI: I won’t – thank you.

TRICIA: [LAUGHS] Because you’re doing such a…

TONI: And, we do – we still have her hair brush that shows, you know, she used it when she did her hair that morning, when she left that afternoon I mean, when she was blow-drying her hair – we have that. That’s been bagged from day one. We have her mattress, in case anything went into her mattress – we have that bagged up. We did save things, but it’s not chain of custody, though – that’s the problem.

TRICIA: That’s what – you’re right. That is a problem, but – and I’m certainly not an expert, I’m just a layperson looking at this – it looks like, with the right investigation, this could be a fairly easy way to solve – I don’t want to say easy, that’s not the right term. If you have the right investigators that are smart and diligent, the right investigation can take place, so that…

TONI: I believe that. I believe that because I believe there are people that know what happened too, and I know who they are and I know they’ve never been talked to, and – I just don’t know who to trust. I don’t know who to get to do this.

TRICIA: Well, you’re starting out great with Dr. Dobersen. If you have an attorney – I know this is very expensive, but you need an advocate on the law end of it. And, you need to get the media on your side – we can certainly help you with that, that’s no problem there. And, if you have a PI, that might help as well, but all of those things we can certainly talk about and help you with. I want to get back a little bit to the interview here because we still have a few more questions, okay?

TONI: Certainly.

TRICIA: When did you – you first believed that it was natural causes, right? When did you start to question the cause of death? When did it start to kind of dawn on you?

TONI: As soon as I got the PER, as soon as I got the PER.

TRICIA: PER – what is that?TONI: We were told it was a mystery until we got the PER.

TRICIA: PER – what is PER?

TONI: So, we had to sit back – PER is postmortem examination report, which is the autopsy and the lab.


TONI: And that took almost six weeks. So, we were kind of in a bubble of grief and we had no idea how she died. And, so, we just believed, okay, well, we’re going to find out. And, then, we got the report and it said natural causes, and I said okay – if it’s natural causes then why is this one thing showing up. So, that’s when we started questioning the doctor.

TRICIA: Right, exactly.

TONI: Dr. Kurtzman.

TRICIA: Do you – have you thought about getting an attorney. An attorney can help you obtain documents and all kinds of investigation material.

TONI: I would – yeah, I would love to find a really good attorney [LAUGHS]. I haven’t been able to find a really good attorney and what I did was, I went through COGO, which is the Colorado Organization of Victims Association or something like that – I can’t remember what it stands for, but they have their own victims’ attorneys. There are two of them down there, where actually, that help people, and one of them, you know, was helping us in the beginning, but he was trying to get the investigation reopened by going through the DA’s office and then the sheriff, Lou Vallario, came out on camera and said, “This case will never be reopened and I’m so sorry the parents are having a hard time accepting this was suicide.” [LAUGHS] And, so, then – now, the lawyer has not called me back [LAUGHS] because…

TRICIA: Because that was the end of it for that lawyer. Well, that person is not an advocate for you. Have you been able to obtain any of the police reports, either for the stalking 9-1-1 calls or the investigation into Morgan’s death? Have they given you anything?

TONI: No, none of them. We honestly – I’ve asked many questions over the phone and I’ve text messaged and e-mailed, but I haven’t – I haven’t gone down there and demanded. I have not – you know, I just haven’t done it. I don’t know how to do that.

TRICIA: Mm-hmm. Okay, well, again, an attorney and a PI can certainly help you with those types of things. Is there any physical evidence whatsoever that that stalker has been in your home or around your home? I know you took the pictures of the footsteps, but is there anything else?

TONI: And, also, after we moved out of that house – you know, because – and then the bank put it for sale after we moved out because the person we were leasing it from went into foreclosure on it, and so it was sold to somebody else. But, before it was sold, my husband – somebody gave us a tip that this guy was on the roof. So, my husband and I called up the sheriffs and we asked them to go get on the roof, and they said without an okay from the bank – because you guys moved out – we can’t do it. So, then, we tried to get the okay from the bank and Wells Fargo said no, we aren’t going to let them do it, which was shocking to me, but then the realtor turned around and said, “Go ahead. Just tell them to do it” and, so – because, she knew, she knew what was going on. So, we called them and we told them the realtor said it’s okay to go on the roof. Well, they just never did. So, then my husband went and had my grandson, you know – he told my grandson, “Go up, I’m going to record you. Just take your time and go up this tree” because we think this is the tree that he went up. My grandson got up there within, I don’t know how many seconds – you know, pretty fast, and he was moving slow…

TRICIA: Right – it didn’t take very long.

TONI: No, it didn’t take very long. And, so, then he went over and then he looked at the gutter all the way around the roof. He looked for signs of things and stuff, and you could see a depression in the roof, he said, where the person could just lay down and nobody could ever see him, but he could see everybody downstairs, people coming, going, the Sheriffs, everything. And, then, he went over to my daughter’s room, the window where she would, the window would get knocked on, because the windows went all the way up to the roof – they were very, very high – and he went over there and the, what do you call it, the gutter was like stress cracked from somebody leaning over, right in the middle of her window and knocking on her window, or probably looking through her window if he had some kind of contraption, I don’t know, but it’s completely stress cracked. So, my husband has pictures of that.


TONI: And he gave them to the Sheriffs and they didn’t care, and we also found a blade. At the same time they were there looking at the roof – the snow had melted at that point, so underneath the tree, over by my daughter’s bedroom window, there was a blade. So, I called up the Sheriffs and I begged them to go over there and pick it up, because I knew chain of custody, right?

TRICIA: Um-hmm.

TONI: And they said, “No, tell Steve just to put it in a plastic bag – don’t touch it – and we have no fingerprints to fingerprint it against anyway, so it doesn’t really matter and we can’t tell how long it’s been there for.” So, we took pictures of it and it’s a very unusual blade. It looks like a hunter’s or a, what do you call it, it looks like a skinning blade, like it’s a blade on both sides…

TRICIA: Um-hmm.

TONI: It’s not like a normal blade that you’d put in a utility tool or something to, you know, cut boxes open or something. It looks like a specialized type of a blade.

TRICIA: And so did you bag it – do you have it?

TONI: Yes. No, they have it…

TRICIA: So, you do have that.

TONI: They put it in evidence. We took pictures of it.


TONI: Everything went in to evidence and they never did anything with it.

TRICIA: Well, at least you have that. I mean, there are a lot of things that you do have that can help you continue on with your quest to find the truth about what happened to your daughter. We are talking with Toni Ingram. Toni’s daughter, Morgan, was stalked. She was found dead in December of 2011, first natural causes listed and then suicide. Toni and her family are absolutely convinced it was the stalker – somehow, some way. Toni, I know this is a horrible position for you to be in. As Marc Klaas says, “Nobody wants to be in this exclusive club of losing a child like this.” If there is anything Websleuths can do for you, let us know please. If you can get us any of the pictures or videos, we have people here that can do all kinds of things and blow it up so you can see it better and – I mean, what they can do is absolutely amazing. It even amazes the police departments, to be honest. I’ve had police call me…

TONI: Wow.

TRICIA: …and say, wow, the work that you guys do is absolutely amazing. I take no credit for it – it’s everybody else. They do all the hard work.

TONI: Well, we put all the videos on Dropbox, too, because we were sharing them with the detective, so we do have all that on Dropbox and…

TRICIA: That would be great.

TONI: You know, they took our DVR of the video cameras, because we were so upset, we weren’t about to try to look at the films for the last couple days on the camera – you know, to review them, because our daughter died. So, they took the cameras and after about two or three months I said, you know, did you find anything and he told me that we don’t have time to look through them. Then, that’s when I got mad and I said, “I want them back.” So, they took some more time because they had to copy them first so there would be chain of custody, and then once they copied them, then they gave them back. And, then, Steve and I spent hours and hours reviewing them again, and we actually do see somebody running from the back of our house to the front of our house and ducking behind our neighbor’s car in the middle of the night, the same night she was killed.

TRICIA: Oh, my God. Okay. So, just so you know, we’re here for you. I’ll get in touch with you after the show, in the week, and we’ll get some of this information. We’ll decide what you want to give to us, what you want to put up on the forum or however – whatever you want to do, you just tell me, just – and look at Websleuths as this big army from around the world that wants to help you find the truth. That’s all they want to do. These people are the most incredible, caring bunch you could ever find, Toni. And, Toni, I just want to say, you are a very brave woman. I know your heart is broken and it must be a struggle every day, but you are doing it for your daughter and I am so grateful that she has an advocate like you and we want to be an advocate for you and your family. So, Toni, if there’s ever anything you can think do or anything we can do for you, please don’t hesitate to let us know. We’re going to have you on the show with regular updates, and we’re here for you, Toni – any time, day or night, okay?

TONI: I greatly appreciate it.

TRICIA: You bet, Toni, and we’ll be in touch and then we’ll just go from there, okay Toni?

TONI: Thanks so much.

TRICIA: Thank you, Toni – you take care now. Bye-bye.

TONI: You, too – bye.

TRICIA: Wow, Kimster, wow. That was just amazing. I know I keep using the word amazing, but I just – I don’t know what else to say.

KIMSTER: I think what they’re doing for their daughter is so commendable. I think it’s wonderful. It’s going to help victims in the future, stalking victims, and families who think the investigation may not have gone deep enough. It just shows them how to use the Internet and what to do and I just am so thankful that they’re doing this in their daughter’s name.

TRICIA: Yeah, absolutely, and all our members want to do is find out the truth and boy, I’ll tell you what, once they latch onto a case, it’s like a dog with a bone with a lot of meat on it – they do not want to let go.

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